tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post2100934717100634686..comments2024-02-21T08:35:35.568-05:00Comments on Spotsylvania Civil War Blog: Placing Some of the Dead at Widow Alsop'sJohn Cummingshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-77676705961869727972013-06-18T21:03:30.406-04:002013-06-18T21:03:30.406-04:00In 1985, I took my mother to visit the cemetery of...In 1985, I took my mother to visit the cemetery of the Berea Christian Church, where our great? grand father, Samuel Alsop was buried. He was my ancestor direct line. I cant remember now, he may have been my great uncle. My grandfather's name was changed I believe after he returned from France, circa 1918, WWI, to Alsup. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-78599982161678394522011-08-16T07:35:14.842-04:002011-08-16T07:35:14.842-04:00recently I inquired to NPS Spotslvania website if ...recently I inquired to NPS Spotslvania website if there were 900 CS Casualites at harris farm, O'Sullivan showed only about a dozen<br />CS Dead. August 15, 2011 received answear:<br /><br />Dear Mr. Fazzini, <br /> <br />At the Harris Farm, the Union army suffered approximately 1,500 casualties, <br />the Confederates 900. These figures include soldiers killed, wounded, <br />missing, and captured. The number of soldiers actually killed on the <br />battlefield usually comprises something in the neighborhood of 12 percent <br />of the total casualty figure in any battle. Going by that figure, the <br />corpses of approximately 300 soldiers would have remained on the field <br />after the fighting. These would have been scattered over a broad <br />area--from the Harris farm in the south to the Alsop farm in the north. <br />O'Sullivan's photograph of burials at the Alsop farm records the burials of <br />just a few of those men. Others undoubtedly would have been buried nearby. <br /> <br /> <br />Sincerely, <br /> <br /> <br />Donald Pfanz <br />Staff HistorianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-10609398702715621202011-08-13T18:00:05.934-04:002011-08-13T18:00:05.934-04:00Thanks-have made a note in Frassanito's "...Thanks-have made a note in Frassanito's "Grant and Lee" that the place of Sullivan photos of <br />CS dead at Alsop house have been ID<br /><br />Ironically on a map in his book his<br />"general Location" on the pictures in relation to Alsop House is almost exactly where your map showing location as well!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-14260007227538344732011-03-25T21:04:45.543-04:002011-03-25T21:04:45.543-04:00David,
Thanks for the great link. It was a good...David,<br /><br /> Thanks for the great link. It was a good but long read. I never imagined that the battles in the area would cause so much havoc, the armies of that time are the equivalent to the Weapons of Mass Destruction of ours.<br /><br />Sorry to bring these comments off topic.<br /><br />Please Back on topic lol.Xbox OneGuidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398527752651146160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-77169422255222850212011-03-25T15:27:50.278-04:002011-03-25T15:27:50.278-04:00Todd,
As for the other images in the series, it wi...Todd,<br />As for the other images in the series, it will probably be near impossible to come up with their location as there are no visible clues (that I have noticed so far) that relate them to the two shown in this post. The only thing I could perhaps suggest is that the burial trenches were to the east side of the house and barn/stable. I say this first due to the direction of the burial crew with the body on the stretcher and secondly because of the lay of the land south and west of the house site. There is a broader, flatter plain as you continue east, toward today's Smith Station Road. Realistically though, I would not think it would be more than 45 or 50 yards beyond where they paused in the one image, if that.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-5851284881194822142011-03-25T14:59:09.747-04:002011-03-25T14:59:09.747-04:00Thanks John. I guess my camera angle question was...Thanks John. I guess my camera angle question was related to the photo of the group of bodies waiting for burial. The 4th NYHA accounts of the battle talk about an "abandoned log house" on the property that one of the company commanders made as his command post during the early phase. The structure in the distanct in that "group burial" photo looks a lot like that log house.Todd Berkoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788305909863367996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-89498997880783811662011-03-25T09:27:01.486-04:002011-03-25T09:27:01.486-04:00John
Excellent work as always. That certainly is a...John<br />Excellent work as always. That certainly is an important part of the puzzle.<br />To Gamepad: You may find interesting an article entitled: "Seven year Locusts: The deforestation of Spotsylvania County" It gives a valuable insight into a part of the war we very seldom if ever consider. As well as the absence of wildlife in this area following the battles. The link is www.virginia.edu/history/EIH/?p=160Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17006862900142157825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-65403448053319018662011-03-25T01:46:13.768-04:002011-03-25T01:46:13.768-04:00GamePad,
Thank you again for your continued intere...GamePad,<br />Thank you again for your continued interest, comments and questions.<br />As for the question regarding the size and age of trees, you heard correctly, a great deal of the area was open during the 1860's, and the iron industry did contribute to that in some part. So did plank roads and everyday utilization of wood as a fuel source and building material. Even today, people clear cut vast acres of their property to sell for lumber, and this happened many times over and over since the Civil War. One area near where I live was cleared for timber in the past couple years and I found a map from the late 1930s/early 1940s that indicates clear cutting had been done on the same parcel back then.<br />For a much more in depth look at these issues I would suggest a two part installment over at Mysteries and Conundrums, the F&SNMP blog: http://npsfrsp.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/the-origins-of-the-wilderness-part-i-the-soil/.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-74612372625233545962011-03-25T01:24:33.229-04:002011-03-25T01:24:33.229-04:00David,
Thank you for your comment.
As to your ques...David,<br />Thank you for your comment.<br />As to your question, I can only ask how far is far? We know from the other photographs in the series that the bodies were brought to at least one central location for a burial ditch. I would imagine that it was more common to do this than to simply bury them where they fell, although we know that did happen as well. I think a perfect example of the gathering process is illustrated by William Frassanito's analysis of the burials of Confederates on the Rose Farm at Gettysburg. That covers a very similar size field.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-18036358269425235342011-03-25T01:09:31.075-04:002011-03-25T01:09:31.075-04:00Todd,
As for camera angles, the then and now pairs...Todd,<br />As for camera angles, the then and now pairs are explained in their captions as they relate to the letters in my drawing.<br />A. From the corner of the fence with the propped up body, the camera is looking almost directly to the east (right edge of the drawing), toward the house.<br />B. The camera is looking toward the north east, toward the house.<br />As for the location of the bodies gathered for burial in other photographs of this series, I can not say with certainty as the structures visible do not look like ones seen in these two photographs. They must be relatively close at hand, but for now they are still an unknown.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-66133237085927413952011-03-25T00:56:46.057-04:002011-03-25T00:56:46.057-04:00Thanks for the info Mr. Cummings. So true too man...Thanks for the info Mr. Cummings. So true too many Battlefields have been or are being destroyed in the area.<br /><br />Just one more question, well until I see your next post.<br /><br />1. Driving around the area I notice the size of the trees. Most of them seem very small to be 150 or so years old even on the preserved battlefields. I was talking to a friend who has had family in the area since before the war and he stated that during the War period much of our landscape was treeless due to all the farming but mostly due to Catherine's Furnace (now located in runes in Chancellorsville) I guess that beast used tons of wood to keep her fires going. <br /><br />In your research can you confirm this? If it is not the case why do most of the trees in the area and battlefields seem small?<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />and please please continue all that you do.Xbox OneGuidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398527752651146160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-62466688705949152412011-03-25T00:54:58.049-04:002011-03-25T00:54:58.049-04:00Todd,
I believe that yours and Mr. Rhea's anal...Todd,<br />I believe that yours and Mr. Rhea's analysis of the fighting is very sound, and certainly bears out.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-9640901845402360732011-03-25T00:45:48.024-04:002011-03-25T00:45:48.024-04:00GamePad,
Thank you for your comments and questions...GamePad,<br />Thank you for your comments and questions.<br />As for the Alsop Town Road, I would have to wager a guess that it is named for the family, but I don't know for certain how that location connects to them. There are quite a few locations within Spotsylvania that have been residences of Alsop's throughout history, but a good many of them are no longer standing and have been absorbed into other land holdings.<br />As to your question regarding the relocation of the dead, it is hoped that they were relocated shortly after the war, perhaps to the Confederate Cemetery near the Courthouse. They may be lost among the numerous "unknowns".<br />And as to the question of possible artifacts located during the construction of the subdivision, it has not been something I have seen reference to at Alsop's, but one would imagine that something may have turned up there as in any excavation in this county. The history is all around us. Unfortunately, not everything can be saved.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-23599581856973782602011-03-25T00:28:19.679-04:002011-03-25T00:28:19.679-04:00Thank you Mr. Hennessy, I appreciate your comment....Thank you Mr. Hennessy, I appreciate your comment.John Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15664001896165763192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-52914748708972681802011-03-24T23:50:37.063-04:002011-03-24T23:50:37.063-04:00Very interesting post, John. Great stuff. John H...Very interesting post, John. Great stuff. John HennessyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-28766051775879772132011-03-24T20:55:28.271-04:002011-03-24T20:55:28.271-04:00It is my assessment that the Confederate dead in t...It is my assessment that the Confederate dead in these photos probably are skirmishers or the van of Ramseur’s brigade killed early in the battle because the main Confederate line later in the fight would have been a few hundred yards west of the Alsop House site. <br /><br />The 4th New York Heavy Artillery occupied the Alsop farm buildings early in the battle, and according to Gordon Rhea’s book, the early fighting between the 4th NYHA and Ramseur’s men took place at the house site and at the fence line just west of the buildings, with the Rebels even using some of the outbuildings as cover. After the 4th NYHA secured the Alsop Farm, with the help of reinforcements from the 1st Maine Heavy Artillery, the battle shifted west and the Alsop Farm became the rear of the Union battle line. <br /><br />John - do you concur?Todd Berkoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788305909863367996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-59053853733400739622011-03-24T20:24:28.764-04:002011-03-24T20:24:28.764-04:00John -- Excellent work as usual. Any chance you c...John -- Excellent work as usual. Any chance you can add icons on your map showing camera angles for some of the shots? Also, where do you place the camera in the shot that shows the row of CS dead, with two structures in the background (looks to the barn)? The two structures in that photo seem to be in line with each other and the bodies.Todd Berkoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17788305909863367996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-29103250951825152952011-03-24T18:45:14.324-04:002011-03-24T18:45:14.324-04:00John, nice detective work, particularly the open w...John, nice detective work, particularly the open window detail. Why do you think they carried the bodies so far to bury them?David Lowenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-25978207819044628452011-03-24T13:45:58.533-04:002011-03-24T13:45:58.533-04:00Hate to be a pain, but I just posted a comment tha...Hate to be a pain, but I just posted a comment that may have been posted under the wrong article.<br /><br />The post went something like:<br /><br />I just have to ask a few questions. <br />1. Are the dead buried under what is now a subdivision or were they moved to one of the many cemeteries around the area like the more famous battles? <br /><br />2. Was anything of interest or historical value unearthed during construction of the subdivision?Xbox OneGuidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398527752651146160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4693055636846442705.post-44286987675558945192011-03-24T13:09:04.928-04:002011-03-24T13:09:04.928-04:00Excellent post. Thank you very much,I have been i...Excellent post. Thank you very much,I have been interested in the Alsop Farm pictures since I stumbled on them around the web, but was un able to find much information out there about the Alsop Farm other than the photos.<br /> <br />A while back you provide me with the location of the Alsop Farm now, but I could not visit because of it being on private property. Thanks again.<br /><br />By the way, is Alsop Town road named after said Alsop Family?Xbox OneGuidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398527752651146160noreply@blogger.com